RuPaulver | 6 points | Nov 19 2016 05:58:30

Debunking the pizzagate evidence (please read intro before downvoting)

Since the pizzagate theories first started, I’ve seen nothing but countless pieces of misinformation. The owner of Comet and his family/associates are now being harassed, and almost undoubtedly face years of this if the issue is not put to rest. While I doubt this will do that, I’d like to at least do my part in their defense.

There needs to at least be a counter-argument to everything that’s being presented. There is no balance around here. Anything discrediting the pizzagate theories is often quickly downvoted and lost. I’ve posted a few things here and there regarding this, and I’ve even been contacted by other redditors thanking me and explaining how they’ve been banned from subs and other websites for posting information counter to this narrative. So I’d like to make this a compilation of the major pieces of this theory, and why they’re wrong or have other rational explanations.

Now, let me start by answering a few questions/responses I’m expecting -

“Why are you defending them? If there’s even a chance that children are at risk, isn’t it worth looking into?”

Ordinarily, yes, I would agree with that. If there was evidence of children going missing, Alefantis/Podesta/others having evidence of child pornography possession, etc, it would absolutely be worth looking into. However, all of the evidence presented is the type of evidence that could be used against virtually anyone. There is as much of a chance of this being real as my local hipster pizza shop being part of a pedo ring. I’m defending them because of the horrible repercussions false accusations can have on their lives and their families. The people affected by the satanic child abuse panic of the 80’s/early 90’s can tell you what that’s like.

“You’re a shill/disinfo agent/etc working with Clinton. Why are your posts anti-Trump and anti-conspiracy”

I’m a 24 year old real estate market analyst and semi-professional fighting game player. I don’t support HIllary Clinton, though I supported her over Trump. I’m interested in conspiracy theories because they’re interesting ideas, but I like doing objective research into them in search of finding modern examples that may actually be real, and also to prevent the spread of wrong information. There’s no way to prove or disprove if someone is a shill. I can only give you my background, and I’d rather you judge the susbtance of my posts regardless of any affiliations or non-affiliations.

“There are always other explanations, but there’s so much evidence for this that it is most likely true”

That’s how it seems when any innocuous thing can be turned into supposed evidence. This is just me trying to give rational and contextual explanations for those far-fetched interpretations. In the end, everything falls apart and you’re left with a pizza shop owner who likes weird art.

Now, to get onto this -

1.The code words - One of the first things to pop up when pizzagate began was Podesta’s use of pedophilia-related code words in his emails, and then an exploration into Alefantis’s Instagram posts with some of the same words. Supposedly, these code words came from FBI documents about undeground pedophilia rings. This is not true. The only FBI documentation that is real is the child-love symbols (which I’ll get into later).

The only source for these code words is from pizzagate itself. “Cheese pizza” as a phrase IS a popular code word, but that’s pretty much the extent of it. To the extent of my research and noting the lack of citation for every post about it, “pasta” has never been a code word for little boy. “Map” has never been a code word for semen. Etc. There is no source for these prior to the past month. Someone likely made up these code words to make it sound like pedo talk, which you can do with pretty much any conversation. You could code a Donald Trump speech to push a theory that he wants black supremacy.

2.The “strangely-worded” Podesta emails -

There’s a few of these, so I’ll just touch on the major ones I’ve seen.

“Pizza for an hour” - when you consider a lot of jobs have hour-long meal breaks, this doesn’t really sound out of place. I’m pretty sure I’ve used similar wordings when meeting with coworkers/friends for lunch at my job. A lot of times I’d like to take the whole hour-long period rather than eat and come back, especially if it’s quick food like pizza. In other words, this can be read as “let’s extend a 5 minute meal to an hour so we can take an actual break from this political bullshit”.

The Christmas email - taking out the made-up code word ideas, it sounds like he normally receives pasta from this person (who knows he’s a foodie), instead got a cheese assortment, is intending on sharing the cheese with his family and then playing a board game together during a family holiday. He’s thanking them for the cheeses, and making a lame joke about doing better after eating cheese than a stuffy pasta meal. That’s a literal interpretation that isn’t very unusual. More detail on this and the emails in general here - http://imgur.com/a/QYjKl

The handkerchief email - if we go off the trend here that Podesta likes pizza (the food), he might have accessories relating to that. A “pizza map” could, for example, be a map of the best pizza shops in Chicago. As far as the Handkerchief Code goes, that’s something that is almost always referring to bandanas, despite the name. Not to mention that every handkerchief has a color.

Podesta’s pizza/food love in general - Podesta is an Italian from Chicago. I really don’t see how it’s odd that he has a thing for it. I lived in New York for 6 years and I can easily relate to that. It’s a more common passion than many of you might think. I suck at cooking, but if I had a friend who owned a pizzeria I would love to throw parties with them and make pizzas together.

3.The Instagram posts -

I saw a picture of a walk-in freezer/fridge, and pictures of kids eating pizza. It’s a popular family-friendly pizza restaurant. There isn’t much surprise there. A lot of the “creepy-looking” pictures can be explained in context. Example - http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=28t98hd&s=9#.WC1alBIrJAY

4.Spirit cooking (as related to the supposed satanic aspects) -

This was explained pretty publicly already, but I’m assuming that was either not seen or was dismissed around here. “Spirit cooking” is a general term that was used for a previous art performance and more regularly for her special way of cooking normal foods. This, specifically the spirit cooking referenced in the emails with the same details, was used as a Kickstarter reward for the artist’s art institute https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/maihudson/marina-abramovic-institute-the-founders

5.Inappropriate art/“all ages” bands/etc -

Some of the art is weird. I’ll admit that. Mostly in a new-age hipstery sense than anything else, though. The advertising seems to be playing on a love for pizza as a vice, definitely not something I haven’t seen before. Pretty much any concert or performance can be labeled as “all ages” if there isn’t alcohol openly served to everyone, it starts before a certain time, or there won’t be explicit nudity involved. I went to hardcore shows when I was 13. I went to a GWAR show when I was 16. Check your local venues and you’ll find similar things that you could call inappropriate but are open to all ages.

6.Besta Pizza and the logos -

First of all, I didn’t understand the original connection with Besta Pizza, other than it being located nearby Comet. The connection was only made afterwards with a man named Andrew Kline who works at the DOJ.

It does seem intersting though, that a DOJ member who works on human trafficking cases and has connections to the Clintons owns a pizza shop here. However, that isn’t the case. Firstly, Andrew Kline is listed as the agent, not the owner. He likely brokered the deal with the owners to open up their pizza shop. Secondly, and most importantly, it’s not even the same Andrew Kline. I’ve seen no attempt to link the two beyond the name, and when you search for yourself, you can see why.

This is Andrew Kline of the DOJ -

https://twitter.com/kliner

https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrewkline1

This is the Andrew Kline who represented the owners of Besta Pizza -

http://theveritaslawfirm.com/meet-the-team-andrew-j-kline/

They’re not the same person.

As far as the logos go, the connection to Comet is extremely loose. A cross of two ping pong paddles resembles a million different other symbols before it resembles a butterfly.

HOWEVER, Besta’s logo does seem too close to be a simple coincidence. But there are a few reasons why that may be. For example, getting trolled in a logo contest with something most people wouldn’t recognize (ala goatse). Many businesses don’t create their own logos to begin with. Or they could’ve seen the symbol somewhere else without knowing its meaning. It is, after all, a pretty basic geometric design not limited by color or special markings. They were most likely contacted about it after pizzagate began, went “oh shit, we didn’t know that” and therefore changed it.

But even if there is some connection between Besta’s owners and pedophilia, there isn’t a connection between them and Clinton/Podesta/Alefantis/etc

In summary, the only pizzagate evidence that exists is either debunked or circumstantial with rational explanations that are more likely than a pedo cult.

If you’ve made it this far, thank you for having enough of an open mind to look at opposing points of view. I don’t mean that condescendingly to others ,either. I’ve been caught up in conspiracy theories before where I only wanted to see what confirmed them for me. It’s a normal way of doing things.

If there is any actual physical evidence of crimes being committed, people going missing, stories of children being abused, etc, I’m totally open to that. But this is waaayyyyyyy too much misinformed and misleading internet sleuthing based off practically nothing. If you can point out something specifically damning that I missed, I will definitely respond to that. But the extreme looseness of this theory makes every new little piece I see look most likely innocuous. Otherwise, I’d like to urge people to stop harassing these people and their families before any kind of irreparable damage can be done.

*edit * Most of the responses to this seem like people didn't read anything. Nothing I've said has been disputed very much, only a couple additional points to the theory that have similar explanations. And I kind of expected that. I just think people should look at alternative possibilities before making a judgement. Only looking for information that supports your belief rarely leads you to truth.

IncreasinglyAlarmed | 44 points | Nov 19 2016 06:14:41

All your "debunking" revolves around looking at the evidence in a particular light, without considering all the contextual and surrounding evidence.

Code words: regardless of if you believe our interpretation of the codewords, they are clearly speaking in code. I reference to you the email wherein a sleeping partner is directly referenced along with a random image of Mr. Potato head. For a group of serious political wonks that is the strangest thing I have ever seen in any email in my entire life with absolutely no context.
This is kinda comprised under the above as well. If it were one email sure, but this is too many to be ignored. Too many weirdly phrased, oddly stated or just plain strange. If it were a simple explanation Podesta could have come forward and explained them, his silence is absolutely deafening.
Putting up pictures of children is not weird. Putting up a picture of a child with hands taped down is very very weird, other people adding on creepy comments breaches into the horrifying.
Our current theory is that the satanic post-modern art scene is used to hide their activities in plain sight, since most normal folks wouldn't attend or be interested in them.
Go watch those Heavy Breathing videos with explicit references to pedophilia, literally saying the words sometimes, and come back to me before just labeling it as a hardcore show. Your personal experience does not merit any weight.
Besta pizza is connected to a Clintonfriend, and their logo had the FBI recognized symbol of boylover. They removed the logo without a single word about it when it was identified ON 4CHAN not even in the public sphere. No one had even made mention of it on the news or in the media and they scrambled to change it.

In summery I name you shill at best, ignorant at worst. The connections between this strange pizza joint, the Podestas, Clinton foundation and their ties to illegal trafficking and Epstein is too many to be discounted.

ghost_in_a_tank | 13 points | Nov 19 2016 06:19:00

excellent post.

awepittance | 7 points | Nov 21 2016 21:34:37

"the satanic post-modern art scene is used to hide their activities in plain sight, since most normal folks wouldn't attend or be interested in them."

I'm confused, so the Geraldo 1980s 'satanic panic' specials were actually real? If one isn't an evangelical Christian how is one supposed to take the idea of 'satanic post modern art scene' seriously? Do you have much familiarity with the rich-people baiting flakey modern art world? Is a crappy artist using a pentagram image in a piece of art a 'satanist' or just lazily using shocking imagery to get attention? A ridiculous amount of Christian POV assumptions being made in the whole pizzagate 'investigation'. Would be nice to see what comes out of this 'investigation' from people who A) don't believe in demons B) don't think strange crappy modern art is coded satanism. It's gone well over the deepend into hysterical christian salem witch trial style paranoia at this point though, would probably be impossible to dial it back.

RuPaulver | 6 points | Nov 19 2016 06:31:24

Haha, I almost forgot about the mr potato head thing. However, it seems like another case of assuming one person is another person just because of a common name (like the Besta Pizza guy). "Mr potato head" being used in those emails look like some kind of inside joke. It's not an obscure reference. One of my friends calls his ex "mr potato head looking ass" all the time.

Here's the problem with talking about "strangely-worded" things. Each one looks like a normal conversation to me. I can explain why they are, and why the alternative interpretation is weird if you're not putting made-up code words next to them. You can do this with anything, like I said. Saying "but what about this one thing that looks kinda odd" and then referring back to the other easily-explained emails is circular logic.

The tape picture isn't weird in context. It's a joke referring to complaints about kids running around all the time. I don't see how that's not extremely more likely than presenting public child abduction.

That's fine if you want to go with that art theory, but it's very loose evidence. There's a ton of weird art out there, but the vast majority of it probably isn't connected to pedophilia.

I didn't say anything here was hardcore music haha. I'm just explaining how most things would be labeled for all ages. I've seen Jimmy Urine perform at the same venues as childrens bands.

Besta pizza is not connected to a Clintonfriend. I clearly explained this.

justforthissubred | 13 points | Nov 19 2016 06:41:20

You are either stupid or intentionally misleading.

You try painting a picture that this poor innocent Alefantis guy is a victim of circumstance and just misunderstood. He's such a good guy that he ~~blackmailed~~ was a co-defendant in a slimy love triangle blackmail suit by Brock's former lover for 850k and a fucking house. Who the fuck ~~does that~~ is involved in stuff like that except for deranged reprobates/criminals? How can you seriously expect anyone to believe he's just a guy w a pizza place being victimized? You are a fucking joke.

Edited for accuracy And as for the bands and art in that place... no kids should be anywhere near that shit EVER. How can you defend this garbage waste of human flesh?

GTFO

RuPaulver | 6 points | Nov 19 2016 06:55:43

I don't know much about Alefantis as a person. Probably none of us know the full story on the blackmail outside what's public. Regardless of that, him being a scumbag isn't justification for accusing him of some of the worst crimes imaginable, unless there's evidence. Which there's not.

twsmith | 3 points | Nov 22 2016 18:16:45

Who the fuck is involved in stuff like that except for deranged reprobates/criminals?

From the lawsuit , Grey accuses Alefantis of having some of the things (furniture, art) that Grey said belong to him after Grey and Brock split.

Upon information and belief, some of the items on Exhibit 1 are being stored, used or displayed at businesses in which Mr. Alefantis has an interest. Thee businesses include Buck's Fishing and Camping at 5031 Connecticut Avenue, N.W. and Comet Ping Pong, 5037 Connecticut Avenue, N.W. For example, when Mr. Grey requested the return of item 14 on Exhibit 1, a burled wood game table, Mr. Alefantis complained that he was using the table in his office.

That's hardly evidence of pedophila, ritual Satanic child abuse, or pretty much anything except having possession of some items of disputed ownership.

justforthissubred | 0 points | Nov 22 2016 18:42:02

Perhaps you are correct. We should then ignore all the other circumstantial evidence surrounding Alefantis, like his creepy comments on Instagram, his good friend Tony Podesta's "art" collection along with the fact Tony P. traveled with Dennis Hastert to Japan to "teach" kids. The fact bands that play at comet have overtly pedo references, the fact that many of Alefantis Instagram friends display blatant pedo comments and suspect images, the fact that comet is adorned with super creepy art like people holding severed heads (fake news failing NYT trying to dismiss this as "modernist" yeah right), the fact that he runs in the same circle with Jeffery Epstein, and numerous other obvious "coincidences". I'm sure he's squeaky clean! lol

twsmith | 2 points | Nov 22 2016 17:09:33

He's such a good guy that he blackmailed his former lover for 850k and a fucking house.

That was (allegedly) William Grey, not Alefantis: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/02/27/media-matters-boss-paid-former-partner-850g-blackmail-settlement.html

justforthissubred | 1 points | Nov 22 2016 17:12:50

You are correct. Alefantis was a co-defendant with Brock. Still involved.

anothervoiceoftheppl | 1 points | Nov 20 2016 04:19:26

well said

[deleted] | 24 points | Nov 19 2016 06:04:14

[deleted]

RuPaulver | 4 points | Nov 19 2016 06:38:20

Working for Clinton is the last thing I'd ever do other than working for Trump lol. Draining the swamp is one of the only parts of Trump's platform I agree with (not to make this political). But I wouldn't feel right to make extreme accusations against someone without actual evidence.

mariner929 | 18 points | Nov 19 2016 06:05:52

You cherry picked your points out of a larger picture and ignored other major arguments. Please address everything else as well.

RuPaulver | 5 points | Nov 19 2016 06:13:49

Tell me the "everything else", then. I picked out the major pieces of evidence that are commonly presented.

sunkenberries | 6 points | Nov 19 2016 08:22:21

At this point 90% of us knows you haven't digged through the sub. If you're going to do the Devil's Advocate (which is sometimes necessary) please do it properly. These are ACTUAL LIVES at stake here.

RuPaulver | 12 points | Nov 19 2016 09:04:21

"Actual lives" that no one can produce a shred of evidence for. I've seen 0 reason to believe that any children have even been accidentally harmed at Comet. There are, however, actual lives at stake in terms of their reputation. False accusations can sometimes do as much damage as a court conviction in these kinds of cases. You can't go around accusing everyone you don't like of molesting children.

I've also figured out by this point that like 90% of people who commented here didn't read my post

Sister_Lauren | 9 points | Nov 19 2016 12:07:58

I'd like to tell you about something that happened to me. This is a true story that happened many years ago. My husband and I and our three young children traveled across the country for a Thanksgiving holiday. We visited my husband's brother and his boyfriend, M. At one point M, my six year old boy and I were alone together. That is when I saw with my own eyes that M was feeling up my little boy. I was shocked. He did it right in front of me, like that was normal behavior for him.

When I told my husband what I had seen he didn't want to believe me. So then I told my brother in law what his boyfriend had done. Then the entire family turned against me, said I made it up to discredit him, etc. They RUINED my reputation in order to protect the pedophile.

Now, why do you think they did that? Is it because protecting the reputation of a grown man who is observed to fondle little boys is more important than protecting a child or a mother's reputation? Why was my reputation considered to be so disposable? I'm really interested in your answer. Thanks.

RuPaulver | 10 points | Nov 19 2016 20:22:43

There is 0 evidence of anyone being harmed in this case except for the people accused. Podesta, Alefantis, etc have never been observed or even have accusations of being observed molesting kids. If someone is innocent, is their reputation disposable enough that it's okay to label them a child predator and have people constantly harassing them and their family at their business claiming it?

ill_change_it_later | 2 points | Nov 22 2016 22:00:27

Hold on a second. You SEE someone "feeling up" you 6 yo and you wait until later to "tell your husband?"

Horrible parent, if true.

Draracle | 16 points | Nov 19 2016 18:41:01

Ok. I just stumbled into Pizzagate. Read some of the posts and thought, "wow, could be some crazy sicko shit going on". Then I went to google to search for debunking arguements -- a hypothesis is really only as good as its counter-arguement. Low and behold I'm right back here!

So u/RuPaulver has made a reasonable case as to why these coincidents are just coincidents and gets absolutely slammed. Angry, hateful words are tossed at him and he is told to leave. Apparentely an investigation into pizzagate shall only include arguements which support the narrative.

So my interest in this topic has plummited with this post: not because the counter-arguement is a slam dunk. But because this sub has revealed a massive agenda-pushing bias.

I'll definitely look more inti this topic, maybe even come back to this sub from time to time. But if you want you opinion to be taken seriously then you must take the counter opinion seriously. The best way to understand a position is to honestly, with effort, try to debunk that position. Otherwise our brains' hardwired ability to fit new information into existing constructs will lead you down a lot of false trails.

I really do hope you are all wrong about this, but I admit you might be right. If you want other people to admit this possibility and investigate it further don't do what you just did here. Instead support and encourage the counter arguement. At best the counter- will be right and the upper circles of power aren't full of psychos. At worst you will make the case for pizzagate much stronger.

RuPaulver | 10 points | Nov 19 2016 20:36:52

Glad to see you're taking a good approach to this and there's people looking around with an open mind. There's no problem with looking at both sides of it, I didn't really come here with the expectation I'd convince everyone why they're wrong. But there's always only one side of the story that people see and I constantly see posts saying how none of the evidence has been debunked, when it has.

ghost_in_a_tank | 12 points | Nov 19 2016 06:22:50

op post history was a fun read. i think he may actually be in love with hillary....

M1GHTYEAGLE | 9 points | Nov 19 2016 06:08:40

You remind me of someone who would argue that without WW2 we wouldn't have all the inventions that have taken us this far into the future. My argument is: guess we'll never know what the world would have been like if dozens of millions of people hadn't of died. Your argument is false because you are promoting anti-skepticism; the world is far too complex for the non-paranoiac at this stage.

RuPaulver | 10 points | Nov 19 2016 06:15:06

I am promoting skepticism. Accepting every theory you read and only looking for what confirms it isn't skepticism.

M1GHTYEAGLE | 2 points | Nov 19 2016 08:26:31

This isn't an echo chamber; it's a sounding board. I'm guessing you've never done a formal critique or brainstorming?

RuPaulver | 6 points | Nov 19 2016 09:06:07

Yes I have. If that's what r/pizzagate is it's not great brainstorming lol

M1GHTYEAGLE | 3 points | Nov 19 2016 09:08:24

You're being a negative Nancy.

RuPaulver | 8 points | Nov 19 2016 09:09:50

Haha maybe. I'm just saying the vast majority of what I've seen is a few people coming up with things, not checking or confirming their sources, and everyone else accepting it and making it a new part of the theory.

Like the Besta Pizza guy. When it first showed up on r/conspiracy, one of the first comments I saw was "are we sure that's the same Andrew Kline?". Shortly after, another poster showed that it wasn't. This got buried deep in the comments and Andrew Kline remains as part of pizzagate.

yoloimmortal | 4 points | Nov 19 2016 19:31:24

LOL, if you think it's just a 'sounding board', try a little experiment. Go on like 5 separate threads and add that Trump also had a close relationship with Epstein. See how fast your 'sounding board' turns against you. As far as brainstorming, I read through a bunch of this garbage, and this thread is the only one where a debate is taking place based in the merit of the evidence. Otherwise it's a bunch of beautiful mind lunacy where everyone agrees that all of D.C. consists of blood guzzling child eaters.

EarthquakesVolcanoes | 2 points | Nov 19 2016 22:32:46

It's because no one fucking cares. If Trump ends up being one of the pedos he can hang from the WH lawn too. Where did you get the idea anyone gives a fuck about politics other than we are finding out that these pedos are politicians

M1GHTYEAGLE | 1 points | Nov 20 2016 22:46:07

This ain't about Trump you idiot. It's about children being stolen, raped and murdered by the shipping-container-full.

justforthissubred | 9 points | Nov 19 2016 06:21:25

Cherry picked the whole orchard there. No mention of creepy instagram comments. No mention of Brock's blackmail . No mention of woman investigating in Haiti killed. No mention of podestas child porn art collection. And calling Alefantists art taste "weird" is laughable. It's way beyond that.

Oh and the classic appeal to emotion lead in and close out pretty much seal the deal confirming you are full of shit.

RuPaulver | 9 points | Nov 19 2016 06:35:46

Creepy instagram comments that look like jokes. Brock's "blackmail case" we know little about and haven't seen anything pedo-related with. Haiti investigation is a little weird, tbh, but there isn't much of a connection to the rest of this. I can show you weird art that exists everywhere lol.

readedited | 11 points | Nov 19 2016 06:50:05

Haiti investigation was a little weird? The lady had no documents, most of the kids weren't orphans, It was quoted from a couple Haitians those ladies were in Haiti before. Some random guy who was charged with sex trafficking decides to defend these people without them even knowing OH WAIT he wasn't even a lawyer!, First thing Clinton does when going to Haiti is help with that case, the pastor claims this is the work of the devil when they get caught lmao, Wikileaks emails about this BUT it's just a little weird ok yeah nighty night buddy.

readedited | 7 points | Nov 19 2016 06:52:34

Now the lady works for the Amber alert company and there is a tie b/w NCMEC and Alert Sense where she works. I'll stop there

RuPaulver | 6 points | Nov 19 2016 06:56:05

So what does that have to do with pizza.

readedited | 4 points | Nov 19 2016 07:06:06

It just adds another RED FLAG to this whole story. There are so many parts to this.

(I just realized I was responding about another red flag Haiti story not the one you were specifically responding to)

RuPaulver | 6 points | Nov 19 2016 07:10:17

It's not part of the story though. Seems like another story that could have a reasonable explanation through it all, which I'd like to read in raw detail before trusting an interpretation on a reddit post. But I don't see what this has to do with Podesta or Alefantis.

dafishmonger | 7 points | Nov 19 2016 08:24:19

I think it's more of a look into the insane amount of sketchy ass people committing child abuse crimes involving the clintons, podestas, and probably republicans as well.) Epstein who they were close with, the lady trafficking the kids in Haiti they were close with, the podestas close relationship with other registered sex offenders among other things. It's not air tight but after sifting through enough of legitimate links it's a bunch of red flags. There is a lot of shit on here though and a lot of people are getting carried away. Just the bare minimum factual knowledge available to everyone shows these relationships and at the minimum they hold some pretty bad company

RuPaulver | 4 points | Nov 19 2016 20:43:10

I mentioned this elsewhere in this thread, but that's just the consequence of having such a large social circle. Someone I used to hang out with every week is now a registered sex offender. I had no idea what he was doing in his private life at the time. With celebrities and prominent political figures, almost all of them probably have a couple or a handful of those guys in their life at some point.

AnonIDIOTA | 3 points | Nov 19 2016 06:55:13

http://archive.is/2XUmH

THIS RIGHT HERE, PLEASE GIVE THIS SOME CONTEXT. Please explain to me so i understand, if i came across this photo and was curious at the hashtag...

RuPaulver | 4 points | Nov 19 2016 07:05:51

Looks like him holding a baby, could be a niece or a friend's kid. The hashtag probably has something to do with chicken, which makes sense for someone in the restaurant industry. Maybe they just ate chicken and enjoyed it, expecting his friends would get the reference.

AnonIDIOTA | 6 points | Nov 19 2016 07:26:17

Oh ok. Yes, i sometimes do that when i have friends over #HAMBURGERFACE #KFCDELICOUS Shit i wish i had 18 friends to get my inside joke.

In my GAY community thou #Chickenlover means when a homesexual adult male is sexually attracted to a underage boy. Shit, that's a bad coincidence..that might look bad if most people knew that..but they dont so thats ok.

Shit, if people knew too that a yellow bracelet means Hug (analingus) in the gay community too.

BUT PHEW, AFTER ALL THAT It was just James Alefantis super excited about the delicious meal they just had and chose to express himself in the most backwards fuckedup makes no sense way imaginable

RuPaulver | 8 points | Nov 19 2016 07:38:46

I'm gay and I've never heard that term lol. If you search it on instagram it's all pictures of chicken dishes.

AnonIDIOTA | 4 points | Nov 19 2016 07:54:14

Oh ok..that didn't really address anything i said. Can you perhaps explain this one then please.

http://vigilantcitizen.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/2FyXrV.png

RuPaulver | 5 points | Nov 19 2016 08:33:07

Look like a joke between friends where the other guy calls him a hotard. Otherwise it's people calling babies cute.

AnonIDIOTA | 3 points | Nov 19 2016 09:13:47

You're right, some people might of got the wrong impression seeing a picture of a babies face super up close at an awkward fucking angle with the hashtag #hotard (state of being a ho and retard) Shit i'm totally missing out on these hilarious jokes.

What about this one, the punchline here must be ecstatic!? https://archive.fo/YJJnJ

RuPaulver | 4 points | Nov 19 2016 09:34:56

It sounded like he was saying that to James not to the baby, I don't know where that impression came from tbh

And for like the 5th time I've had to mention this, I cited that tape picture in my first post. http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=28t98hd&s=9#.WDActBIrJAZ

SpinOnThis | 1 points | Nov 20 2016 15:34:32

Yeah like the picture of a huge empty refrigeration room and one guy comments #killroom and James Alefantis comments #murder. Hilarious, my sides are literally hurting.

RuPaulver | 5 points | Nov 21 2016 07:39:25

Well I guess people do have to be more careful with sarcasm since it's led to the creation of a whole subreddit

SpinOnThis | 1 points | Nov 20 2016 15:44:48

Yes precisely the overwhelming majority of the #Chickenlovers posts show actual food or chickens and normally in conjuction with many other related hashtags, what does the picture James Alefantis show? OMG what a coincidence.

RuPaulver | 3 points | Nov 21 2016 07:41:25

Possibly two people who just ate a meal of chicken, hence the hashtag

SpinOnThis | 1 points | Nov 21 2016 16:12:47

So the adult ate chicken wings and the infant ate chicken baby food then?

readedited | 2 points | Nov 19 2016 07:07:06

Can you post a picture I don't click on links.

antipasta_ | 1 points | Nov 20 2016 10:46:09

maybe bound little boys hanging in a shower block or empty swimming pool, looking like they have been kidnapped and about to raped is "weird art" to you, to everyone else, it's fucking sick and promoting violence and sex abuse against children. There has been high level cover ups of PRIME MINISTERS and plenty others in MI5 in the UK involved in pedophila so this isnt much of a stretch of the imangination with the darkness, corruption, mass murder, genocide that emanate's of out the Government of Washington DC. Lets see they control the Afganistan herion smuggling operation, so I wonder who's smuggling and transporting and selling children? aaaa probably just a couple of arabs with a cessna. Give me a fucking break you clown.

Sister_Lauren | 3 points | Nov 19 2016 12:53:39

No mention of the testimony of many different people like Cathy O'Brien that this is how our government is run.

knight222 | 7 points | Nov 19 2016 06:10:36

Rambling - CHECK
Theories - CHECK
Proofs? BARE NONE

mccoyster | 2 points | Nov 22 2016 17:53:45

You just described this subreddit perfectly.

knight222 | 1 points | Nov 22 2016 18:04:28

Then be my guess and GTFO. Thanks.

sunkenberries | 5 points | Nov 19 2016 08:08:55

Firstly, if you want to play the Devil's Advocate I appreciate that. However, if you have any doubts in yourself I'll remind you that threads like these literally deter viewers from this sub. You're actually supporting the cause of letting these people get away with kidnapping, rape and murder all under our noses. Media will never cover this, so our only hope is the internet. Please remember that when you make these threads.

Code words are derived from pedophile communities and deepweb .onion sites and that can only be accessed through Tor. There are clear exampes of people using " pizza slices" as a quantitative term to determine their order. Don't assume that everythingg is documented by the FBI. The choice-of-codeword is up to the people in play, and there's no reason the FBI would have documented their codewords if they've never been caught. Also you've completely ignored the reason why people discovered that they were codewords in the first place: the words don't make sense in the context of the conversation. Furthermore, the "hankerchief code" is undeniably a documented code word system.
"Pizza for the hour" makes sense because it's supposed to make sense. Have you smoked weed? I used to in the past, and we'd replace "weed" for "green tea" for texting so that we wouldn't leave evidence. Not that hard to find another noun that can be used in similar contexts.
You're being selective. This is a collective analysis of Alefantis post in order to paint a picture of the type of person he is. His choice of art, photos, all are used as a collection because a selection would create a false image. Think about it this way. First thing you do when you confiscate and look at a pedophiles computer is his "Pictures" folder, and see what kind of pictures he has. Normally they'd be filled with underaged children because he's a pedophile. Simple profiling.
Spirit cooking is not evidence of crime, it is implicant of potential satanic worship within the Clinton Foundation. Do you really think people should just completely "leave this part out", just because you say so? You may have a point, but you're asking people to arch backwards and be lenient on who we know is involved in these atrocities.
You're giving them way too much credit at this point, if you're saying the art doesn't mean anything. Take a look at Amanda Kleinman's promotional video for child sex slaves: https://www.reddit.com/r/pizzagate/comments/5dp49k/the_pizza_world_in_amanda_kleinman_comet_ping/da68u54/
Removing logo indicates guilt. You can argue this all you want, but that's how we see it.

You're taking the "innocent until proven guilty" game way too far at this point. Just think about how many lives we could save.

RuPaulver | 7 points | Nov 19 2016 09:00:00

I'm not trying to deter viewers, I'm trying to deter the interpretations of it that aren't realistic.

I already mentioned that I know "cheese pizza" is a popular code word. I'm sure there's a couple pizza-related phrases that can go along with it. But "pizza" is also a common word to use when talking about pizza as a food, especially when it's dealing with an actual pizzeria. The rest of the phrases have absolutely no sourcing. I can say "wall" means "black power" when Donald Trump talks, and it has literally the same evidence as the code words mentioned in pizzagate. The words do make sense in context of the conversation, a lot more so than these interpretations. I also said I know handkerchief code is a thing, but it's a code used to refer to bandanas, and would be an odd choice of code in that conversation.
Yeah I actually did similar things in high school lol. I remember me and my friends using "lemonheads" after halloween one year. That doesn't mean everything is a code word, though. Especially when the literal interpretations still make sense.
So a cherry-picked collection of photos and art alongside accusations of child abuse is not considered "selective"? A family-friendly pizza restaurant is probably going to have a lot of pictures of kids on their instagram, for one thing. The rest is just art, same types I've seen in a lot of different places. Even if you think it's weird it doesn't mean they're molesting children.
I don't remember saying to leave that part out? I just said it's being interpreted the wrong way based off an old performance piece the artist did with the same term.
Holy shit lol I haven't seen this video but this is a promotional video for a record pressing. Some decent vaporwave aesthetics tho. Also wasn't this just someone who did a concert there?
If the logo was a mistake, and they were contacted about it, why would they not remove the logo? That seems like what any reasonable person would do. And, idk why I have to keep repeating this, but the Besta connection to the Clinton's was fake

sunkenberries | 7 points | Nov 19 2016 09:18:50

Honestly I think you're making ane effort to understand so I'll do my best to help you understand. Here is a 2 paragraph summary I wrote yesterday about the start of the investiations.

Pizzagate is an ongoing series of investigations into the suspicious activities of high-ranking elites of Washington, DC. The investigations began after a user discovered from the Wikileaks email releases, that the members of the Clinton Foundation had an abnormal obsession with discussing “pizza” in their emails, which arose the suspicions that these were actually codewords for something completely different. After researching the connections a user found that they were regularly holding “pizza meetings” at a pizza shop named Comet Ping Pong, owned by the 48th most powerful man in Washington, DC. His name is James Alefantis.

Looking into his social networks, users had discovered that surrounding this man was a community of people with an abnormal affection for grotesque art featuring under-aged children and satanic symbolism. People began theorizing that this was a potential community of pedophiles, to discover that the entire block that surrounded the restaurant were shops with classified pedophilia symbolism used among pedophile communities, which would all incidentally link back to the Clinton Foundation. Discovery after discovery, users were overwhelmed by the disturbing continuity of “coincidences” that linked together and eventually realized that these people were operating a large-scale child-sex trafficking ring, right beneath our noses.

The points that your post is attacking are the early points of inquiry that made us begin this investigation. Basically they were flags. The core of our investigation lies in what we've discovered afterwards, none of which you've covered. NONE. Sex Island, Laura Silsby, other prominent pedophile figures, you've literally skipped the bulk of what we're talking about here. You're standing outside a tunnel refusing to make the first step, because you think it's a dead-end. We've all already STEPPED INTO the tunnel, only to realize how deep it is. We can't convince you to make this step, if you're not opening up to it.

RuPaulver | 7 points | Nov 19 2016 09:49:37

That's exactly the problem though. The whole entry into pizzagate was based on false and flawed suppositions. If you already believe something's true, there are always ways to find evidence to support it. But then when you look at the whole thing with the false beginnings removed, it breaks apart from the bottom up, and becomes only circumstantial with ties failing to link together. The Haiti case has nothing to do with this pizza place. Epstein has nothing to do with this pizza place. Some weird ass musicians performed at the pizza place and likely knew the owner as much as any musician knows their various venue owners. They're not just coincidences, they're the same types of coincidences and loose links you can make with any type of story you can make up. I've even started to think that pizzagate is a parody of conspiracy theories in general.

Like I said, if there was even a shred of evidence of something actually happening at Comet, or kids going missing after being seen there, etc I would totally be open to looking into things. But there isn't any.

Sister_Lauren | 5 points | Nov 19 2016 13:40:33

I think what you are missing is the bigger picture, there is a video you need to see CONSPIRACY OF SILENCE [Banned Discovery Channel Documentary] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AY-F5JoHoho&t=9s Why was it banned?

That one was made over twenty years ago, what has changed since then? Well for one thing a lot of survivors groups have formed and people started to speak out, plus we have the internet. But you have to start this investigation with the realization that this is happening. You seem to think it is not happening unless it is demonstrated. We know it is happening and we are looking for signs of it, and finding lots of them.

If you refuse to even look for something, then obviously you are not going to see it. But trying to debunk what others are seeing while refusing to look at it is only making you look foolish and/or corrupt.

RuPaulver | 7 points | Nov 19 2016 20:32:54

This isn't about a bigger picture thing. I'm discussing this case. If I show you why pizzagate isn't a real thing, I'm not missing the "bigger picture" of possible other pedo scandals in Washington. I'm talking about pizzagate. I don't think the workers at my local Subway are child molesters either.

yoloimmortal | 4 points | Nov 19 2016 19:17:40

The people feeding you the narrative are simply priming you.

https://explorable.com/priming

Did you notice that in the context of this incident, all the sudden every similar scandal from all over the globe gets thrown in with this one? People have linked every documentary ever made,That is not a mistake, it's a way to get you to associate them all with one another as if it were a cohesive storyline.

OP's logic still stands. Read his posts again, he is way ahead of you... you're the third person to regurgitate the same points as if you were telling him for the first time. The fact is that these are all highly circumstantial allegations that have only a thread connecting them, and can all be discredited pretty easily, you should also look pretty skeptically at the sources. How many primary sources have there been? Do you even know the difference between a primary and secondary source? You should probably look that up before you convict people in the court of public opinion.

A lot of people on this thread are believing everything told to them at face value.

I'm not saying that these terrible crimes don't happen, but what the hell does your documentary from 20 years ago prove in this case? Not much. And all of you seem to be avoiding the fact that OP has pointed out here, you have to look at this stuff rationally, at least respond to his points before throwing some other piece of circumstantial evidence in the pile.

Sister_Lauren | 3 points | Nov 19 2016 13:24:52

Regarding number 4, we need to also consider that Hillary Clinton is an experienced mass murderer. People who are willing, like she is, to promote wars (mass murder) deserve a deeper look into their psyche. So a comment like she was going to "sacrifice a chicken to Moloch" deserve special attention. I mean she sees human sacrifice as a part of her job so maybe it is a part of her religion and sex life also. I would not rule it out.

yoloimmortal | 2 points | Nov 19 2016 19:00:58

They threw in that chicken to Moloch line in the email as a joke, the 'elites' know about Alex Jones and David Icke just like the rest of the world does. Do you have any idea how many people in government joke about lizard people?

People are gullible... just because you are being fed a narrative doesn't mean it's all tied together and true. Some of it might be, but other things are clearly not related or only have the slightest amount of credibility.

mccoyster | 2 points | Nov 22 2016 18:01:13

There is no sliding scale for "innocent until proven guilty". Until /proven/ /guilty/, people are /innocent/. Innocent is the direct opposite of guilty. In America, at least, we require proof. Can you provide a single piece of evidence indicating a crime has been committed? Or even one supposed victim?

Speculation and hypothesis is not evidence. Coincidence abounds more than most humans can imagine.

aleister | 4 points | Nov 19 2016 06:15:04

I too pine for a simpler world. Tough cookies son.

debtrevolution2016 | 4 points | Nov 19 2016 06:35:22

I agree with a lot of the points you're making. Most of the shit people have been saying about pizzagate are crazy assumptions and confirmation bias going crazy.

But I think there is something there. The fact that the pizza terminology was also found in the stratfor emails. The connections with Laura Silsby, Jeffrey Epstein, David Brock, Alefantis; all pretty sketchy. And now this thing with Monica Peterson? She was investigating human trafficking in Haiti, was researching it, apparently believed the Clintons were facilitating it through the Caracol facility. And then she fucking gets mysteriously deaded? It's too much, man. I think we're onto something. A lot of the shit is speculative, I'll give you that. But there's truth in there. I mean, Bill Clinton, Ron Burkle Epstein alone is enough to make me believe that there's shady shit going on. But there's just too much, too many connections. I can't believe it's all coincidence.

RuPaulver | 6 points | Nov 19 2016 07:07:17

I'd hate to see what conspiracy subs would do with all the emails between my coworkers that mention tacos. We eat them a lot. I wouldn't be surprised if pizza was a common food choice in government buildings.

I don't know enough about the Haiti issue, but I think it's interesting. I haven't seen a connection between that and this, though.

spontaneousspectator | 4 points | Nov 19 2016 06:51:06

I definitely appreciate you playing devil's advocate here. The Podesta email for me is the most suspicious thing, just look how it is referred to initially. (checking the Field house, found a square cloth handkerchief (white w/ black)). Now there's no argument to whether handkerchief code exists, it's real and whoever found that cloth referred to it for what it actually was, a handkerchief with a checkered pattern. Now when Susan emails Podesta about it, she refers to it as a "pizza related map" not even describing that it was a checkered handkerchief! You'd think if it was a normal handkerchief than Susan would have described that it was a black and white handkerchief, but she knew that the black and white was a 'code'/map and referred to it as such.

RuPaulver | 5 points | Nov 19 2016 07:00:55

The emails don't say it was checkered, it just says "white with black". She could've just used the colors without examining whatever imagery was on it. Like I said before, "handkerchief code" is a real thing, but is used in reference to bandanas, and would be an odd choice of code to use if the situation was what the theories push.

justforthissubred | 4 points | Nov 19 2016 07:10:48

How about Tony podesta traveling to Japan to "teach" with Hastert???? That's another huge piece of circumstance and we didn't even mention it... yes edit mobile autocorrects

RuPaulver | 7 points | Nov 19 2016 07:20:51

Some people have friends who do bad things. For example, Trump seems to be just as good friends with Epstein as Bill was. That doesn't directly implicate either of them into what Epstein was involved with.

Every high-profile person in politics or the celebrity world has a lot of friends and contacts. At least one of those friends will have probably committed a horrible crime at some point. My social circle is decently-sized but probably a lot smaller than someone like him, and I've been friends with someone who's now a sex offender.

Sister_Lauren | 4 points | Nov 19 2016 13:06:13

You should check out the videos of Cathy O'Brien talking about what happened to her. You seem to be rather ignorant of the fact that pedophiles do exist, they do horrible things to children and they are protected at every level of government.

I'm going to be nice and assume your are well-meaning and ignorant and not a troll, but I have to admit that my first impression of you is that you are trying to cover this up and excuse it.

awepittance | 3 points | Nov 21 2016 21:41:41

nice dodge on Trump's blatant Epstein 'orgy island' connections

DrDuplicitous | 4 points | Nov 19 2016 20:59:24

One wonders if Pizzagate was a distraction from Trump's ties to Jeffrey Epstein, a confirmed child-sex ring criminal.

Naalu | 3 points | Nov 19 2016 11:07:07

While i appreciate post that will try to present a different picture for what is uncovered here, for the sake of an objective forum, this post was a very very weak debunk all around.

yoloimmortal | 8 points | Nov 19 2016 18:40:18

Why? I saw all the same evidence as OP and I'm just as skeptical. You say his post is a weak debunk, which part and why?

He seems to be saying that the evidence is flimsy, and that there is a combination of tenuous connections and deliberate misinformation being posted.

OP took the time to write this all out covering each point in detail and explaining the potential weakness of each example. The least you could do is either challenge his logic point by point or offer some more compelling evidence, rather than saying it's 'weak all around'.

DrDuplicitous | 3 points | Nov 19 2016 21:38:46

The timing of the Pizzagate thing is also suspicious. Just as the Epstein link to Trump and Clinton was coming to a head (Trump's 13-year-old rape accuser was preparing for pre-trial), Pizzagate comes out.

RuPaulver | 2 points | Nov 19 2016 22:27:14

I'm the furthest thing from a Trump supporter, but iirc the Trump accuser recanted and said she made it up

DrDuplicitous | 3 points | Nov 19 2016 22:41:03

No, she didn't recant. She only dropped the suit, likely out of fear.

DrDuplicitous | 1 points | Nov 21 2016 06:19:44

Recanting and dropping a lawsuit are two completely different things.

blackeneth | 2 points | Nov 19 2016 07:04:30

AGREE -- ALL SUPPOSITION

I think all of your points are valid.

All of the facts you mention have a plain and simple meaning. Conspiracy theories take a known set of facts and connect them differently -- the "hidden meaning." How does one choose from one or the other? Other evidence is needed - physical, financial, wiretaps, surveillance, etc.

You strongest argument: no identified victim(s)

To establish a crime, one looks for the following elements:

Means - the ability to commit the crime
Motive - the reason to commit the crime
Opportunity - the chance to commit the crime
Plus additional evidence to prove the accused availed themselves of the opportunity

The above elements are not complete -- and they cannot be completed by just searching the internet. Law enforcement officers are needed.

Human nature is also strongly attracted to conspiracy theories

"Give me three sentences and I can condemn any man." -- Maximillien Robespierre (of the Reign of Terror)

BUT - IT'S WEIRD

unusual interest in pizza by adults
creepy pictures and comments
creepy, expensive, artwork
bizarre live performances

One could conclude that the parties involved are guilty of interest in deviant sexual acts.

PLUS - PAST SEXUAL CRIMES IN D.C.

1983 Congressional Page Sex Scandal

The 1989 Call Boy Scandal (video) and Craig J. Spence

The DC Madam - Deborah Jeane Palfrey

John Edwards - 2004 Democrat VP candidate, campaigned for President in 2008

Eliot Spitzer - Governor of New York; anti-prostitution crusader caught fornicating with call girls

Oh Heck - Here's a List Of Them All

WHAT TO THINK ?

It's possible, but not proven. It could be nothing.

RuPaulver | 6 points | Nov 19 2016 07:13:03

Oh I totally don't doubt that there's pedos in Washington, and that some past cases have been proven. I would have 0 surprise if there were sitting congressmen with child porn on their computers. But in this specific case there just isn't anything that you couldn't make similar connections for for anybody. If you gave me any random famous figure and a few hours I could probably do the same thing.

_PizzaGate_ | 2 points | Nov 19 2016 08:52:55

What about the pic of the little girl taped to the Table ???

what about the photo of the baby and the "daddy likes butt... ill tell u when ur older" comment ?

What about the pic with the ethic baby and the euros ??

What about the comments on the photos.... ?? "cuteness is a serious business..." "most expensive accesory" Who calls a baby an expensive accesory ??? do you think the guy who said that souds like the babies dad ? think... would you say that about a baby??

What about the pic with the UK pounds and the Xanax pills with the comment... playing ping pong in London... ??

What about that ??

What about explaining who are these little girls and babies he is photographed with ?? he doesn't have kids... so who are they ? you can say they are newphews etc... but then again... WHY would you tape her to the table and "jokingly" say... "the new place for youngsters at the pizzeria"?? how do you explain that ??

Do you have a logical explanation for all these instagram images ??? Like I said... even if that little girl is his niece... why would you tape her to the table at your pizzeria ?? and WHY would you photograph her ?? and WHY OH WHY would you put that comment ???

Gimme a break !! Some "evidence" can be debunked, like you said... but what about the rest you are not mentioning ???? You can even see the video of the guy f*** a baby and say there is another explanation... get real... shit happens... child trafficking is real... pedophiles EXIST... I agree that we don't have enough evidence, he might as well just be selling kids (there are some people at drug cartels that don't use drugs,.. only sell them) but he's guilty nevertheless... so yeah... saying he IS a pedophile might be a stretch... but he is def. shady and guilty... and it involves babies.

On the article with his statement... he played the corrupt-clinton-card.,... he said: those pics were STOLEN... and they also stole pics from my friends and employers... etc etc etc.... like SHUT UP BASTARD !! don't turn it around... explain WHY THE F*** do you have those images in the first place....

If he proves the identity of the babies and girl then we could believe he's innocent... but he doesn't... he turns it around... and blames everyone else... crazies! conspirational racist irrational tinfoil hat people are attacking me!!! typical clinton-like response....

And these are only pics from his instagram.... let alone explaining weird pics on his friend's accounts... or the COUNTLESS new evidence that comes daily.

If they accuse me of pedophilia cuz I have a pic with a baby or girl (specially if its f*** trending like crazy in the internet... I would obvioulsy state the identity of the babies and say they are degenerates for thinking I meant something sexual with them... He didn't ... he turned it around... he even said "the pics with minors".. .not even niece, nephew, baby, child... he actually used the word "minors" like... who would say that about your family? and if those are not family why does he have them ??

Accept it, He's guilty as hell...

RuPaulver | 4 points | Nov 19 2016 09:07:36

I really don't want to keep having to respond to people who clearly didn't go through what I wrote and looked at the pictures linked

DuluthTruth | 2 points | Nov 19 2016 18:52:27

Funny we don't want to respond to someone who is ignoring the context of all the evidence we have uncovered.

yoloimmortal | 2 points | Nov 19 2016 18:54:54

I'll play devil's advocate for you. Apparently the ex-boyfriend of this Alefantis guy is David Brock right? He leads Correct The Record for Hillary Clinton. His career is based on deception and propaganda. CTR put pornography all over Bernie Sanders' social media sites in order to get them shut down. Do you think he would be above smearing an ex-boyfriend in a very similar manner? He could have dug up all of those creepy pictures from who knows where, and is using them as revenge. I'm not saying that's the explanation, but look at who's involved, a prior public opinion manipulator who uses porn to smear his opponents. I noticed the dates from a lot of the accounts are very recent, a rational person would take that into consideration and allow the possibility that this is a smear job, misdirection for something else, political tactics from the alt right (this whole debacle emerged from The Donald) or it could be real. If you believe every single thing at face value, you're guaranteed to get at least some of it wrong.

I'm creeped out by this stuff too, but like the OP of this thread has brought up, there are alternative explanations for what YouTube and 4chan are trying to tell you.